Work In Progress Podcast
Episode #

Nik Sharma PodcastūüĎč How to navigate the DTC world as a modern brand

In this Nik Sharma podcast, we touch on the current state of DTC, and the impact of legacy brands like Pepsi are drifting from a retail-only.

 min listen

A conversation with...

Nik Sharma
Sharma Brands

Hosted by...

Harvey Hodd
CEO & Co-Founder


In today's podcast episode with Nik Sharma, we touch on the current state of DTC [11:00], and the impact of legacy brands like Pepsi are drifting from a retail-only strategy and developing their own DTC channels [17:20]. We then dive into the different kind of media strategies a brand can build with, covering earned, owned and paid media, and how to navigate all 3 without a dependency on any one channel [20:35].

Nik then goes on to talk about SMS and Conversational Commerce when building a brand, and how he sees this channel evolving in the future. He also expands with some best-in-class brands and their SMS strategy [24:18]. We finish the episode with Nik breaking down how he would start a brand today and how he thinks about each stage of brand, acquisition, manufacturing and distribution [36:25].

Full transcript

Harvey [00:00:04] This is Work in Progress. A podcast by Blueprint covering e-commerce, growth, strategy and retention. 

Harvey [00:00:14] Today, we're chatting to Nik Sharma. Nik is an omnipresent figure in the DTC ecosystem, one of Adweek young and influential and an authority in e-commerce and strategy. Nik is the founder ofSharma Brands investing, advising and operating multiple DTC co's such as Hint, Vaynermedia and Haus. How are you doing? 

Nik [00:00:33] I'm doing good. Thank you for having me, Harvey. 

Harvey [00:00:35] No problem, man. It's good to speak good to catch up after a long while. I guess, for our listeners who don't have a ton of context on kind of yourself or your career. Can you give us a rundown? 

Nik [00:00:46] Yeah. So I would say my career probably started when I was in high school. I got really interested in social media. Mostly on the organic side. And so it started out with social media marketing for a lot of local businesses, pizza shops, coffee shops, little stores, things like mom and pop. And we would basically do things like run a Facebook promotion, where if you come home after school and get a slice of pizza, you get a free soda. Just like very basic stuff. But like, it kind of got us, got me started in social media and, like, really interested. After that, I wanted to get a little more hands on and do more fun things. And so I started cold emailing like crazy and found myself in the music industry basically doing the same thing. But on a different level with some musical celebrities like Pitbull, Priyanka Chopra launching a band called Magic and a few others. And from there, I really understood, like social engagement and how to, like, how to write copy, etc. I took those skills and went to the world of ad tech where I learned everything about data, programmatic, paid media and just kind of understanding how that ecosystem works. Then I kind of took everything that I had learned up to that point and went toward the consumer route. And so I started at Hint Water where they were primarily a retail business and my job was to build out direct to consumer. And so I was there for about two years, really built out the direct consumer business. The team went to Vaynermedia pretty much to do the similar thing, build out a team and kind of a almost like a SWAT team for DTC, now known as Vaynercommerce. And then after leaving VAyner, I've just been consulting with a variety of different businesses. Judy to Lemon Perfect to Super Coffee, Pill Club, Caraway, kind of all over the place, but really going in and being able to quarterback strategy from a DTC perspective, how it relates to other channels or pieces of the business and really anything that me or my team could do to help them move their needle forward, is what we do. But that brings us to today. 

Harvey [00:03:01] Nice run. Okay. So you've had extensive experience in what is still a super young category or kind of industry, I guess. And then so kind of taking it back with Hint, I guess you came in, like you mentioned, they were completely retail and at the time were pretty much I guess you came in with a blank slate and you just had the ability then just to reimagine that that distribution line with eCom. 

Nik [00:03:27] Well, for me, it was it was actually the first time that I'd been in that world of direct to consumer. I had a good understanding of things like how to grow up engagement, how to get those click through rates. But I had never, like, actually sold product before on the Internet. And so I think that was kind of my advantage, too, was there was no playbook I was used to seeing. There was no like formula. There was no process. There was no three step way to jumpstart your Facebook ads. I pretty much learned how to run Facebook ads while I was at Hint. I focused on expanding my network, finding what people like us that are operators in those worlds, and just started really like absorbing ideas and concepts and the how tos. And then it was a matter of, ok, how do we take this end goal of selling product and really like map it back to what a consumer might want or need or a desire they have or something they want to fix or whatever it may be. And we just came up with really different kind of like out of left field marketing strategies and campaigns and creatives very different than the traditional try this X percent off, buy it here. We really focused on outcomes. We really focused on benefits. We were hyperly focused on testing. You know, if we would launch a campaign, it would launch with 250 to 300 creatives at any given time and then work on optimizing down. So overall, it was just going in and just starting to almost like understand it from ground zero and just seeing what works and then slowly building on top of that. It was almost like taking learnings over the last two years and just constantly compounding.

Harvey [00:05:12] Ok man so you had tested that mentality. I guess you had that blank slate to really work on and the reins to do it. And you said some of your strategies are kind of out there compared to, I guess, what would be the norm. You had an IRL store with Hint, right? 

Nik [00:05:29] We did. It was like a permanent pop up. 

Harvey [00:05:32] Nice man. And that was part of your DTC strategy? 

Nik [00:05:36] No, that was more of like a side project within the company. We didn't play too much of a role in the the IRL experience other than, you know, how can we optimize it, which was like if there was a TV in there, we want to promote an offer that might be online. If the doors were open, we might have a poster outside that says tag us on your stories, get a free bottle, like just things here and there that we could improve wherever we could. But that was more of a core team project. 

Nik [00:06:04] Yeah. So it was almost like just an additional touch point. Okay. And then that evolved, I guess, slowly through Vaynermedia, like you mentioned, now Vaynercommerce and then into Sharma Brands. I know you mentioned a ton of great brands there I know there's quite a lot of buzz around Judy and Haus and Twice I think Twice toothpaste are super interesting. How is that progressing? I guess you're taking the learnings over the last kind of five, six years and now are kind of right in the trenches with these operators on a Day-To-Day basis. 

Nik [00:06:34] Yeah. I mean, for me, it's extremely fun going in and trying to figure out, like, what are those white spaces? What are those gaps? It's the same process as within. Right. There's no playbook that we go in with. And I think that's kind of a specialty. Like we don't have a pitch deck where we say this is what you're currently doing and this is what you should be doing. It's more so let us come in. Let's figure out what's really working or not working, and then let's try and find those white spaces. Let's look at shopping data. Let's look at repurchase data. Let's look at what our consumers actually caring about in their own free time. You know, if they're your consumers and then using all those data points to work backwards and almost figure out that strategy. 

Harvey [00:07:15] Nice man, ok cool. Then being in the thick of it, being out to see how that kind of objective viewpoint of various different touch points, different industries, categories, demographics, etc. I guess you have a pretty kind of educated view of where DTC and eCom in general is heading. And what do you think some of the key pillars there? I know there's this kind of noise around CAC being unsustainable. Some of the capital that flowed in over the last number of years is slowly drying up. The idea that DTC is very much a channel versus like a sole channel and actually for scale there is an omnichannel approach etc. What are your thoughts in general there?

Nik [00:07:57] Yeah, tons of thoughts. I mean, I don't think that capital is necessarily slowed down. I think capital has gotten lot smarter with where it's being allocated. If you look at some of those brands that got pretty heavily funded, a lot of them were betting on brand equity or for their brand. But then they all sell commodity products and it's just unsustainable for any business to sell a commodity product unless you have some kind of moat. Right. If you're 7-Eleven, your moat is that you have a 7-Eleven on every corner. Same with if you're like a CBS, but if you're a skin care company and you're selling the same product as six other skin care companies from the same manufacturer, because that's the first result on Google and you're betting that your brand or your social media following or your community is going to be your moat or differentiator like that just doesn't really work. I mean, it could work. The probability is very low. The businesses that are getting that capital now are businesses that have moats within their own product, within their distribution, whether that's through things like maybe a celebrity being attached to it, whether that's through owning and operating like a set of social media handles, the modes in which investors look for now are much different than what it was, I would say, even like two years ago. But I don't think DTC is necessarily going anywhere. A lot of people have started to say DTC is dying. If anything, I think it's quite the opposite where it's becoming more of a focus or an accelerated focus for brands that haven't focused on it in the past. Brands that are normally used to doing a 100 to 200 to 300 million in retail revenue are now thinking, well, shit, how are we going to, you know, how are we going to weather the storm of Covid if we don't even have an e-commerce presence? And if some of them do, it might just be something like Amazon or Jet or some kind of eretail platform where you're still relying on another platform versus owning that distribution channel and owning that communications from beginning all the way through the end. And so I think it's it's definitely accelerated the rate at which DTC is becoming a normal thing. As far as you mentioned, DTC being a channel versus a business model, I think it's different. Right? I think for some brands like Prose, DTC is a business model because their moat lies in their algorithms and their ability to create custom formulas, basically So that's their moat, right. Is that, that formulation process for them, there's not many other channels where they can have that kind of high touch and also just that very interactive onboarding or interactive approach for a consumer. It's really hard to do that kind of thing in retail. And it's also just not scalable. Whereas, you know, if you're a coffee brand that just launched on DTC, you might think DTC is that might be your business model at first. But then when you realize that a PO into Target can flood revenue, like you're not going to say no, it would just be silly to say no. Right. In those cases, DTC almost becomes this channel where you build out your proof of the product market fit. It gives you an initial understanding of who your customer is, where they live, why they're buying your product, what your repeat purchase rate is they essentially give you a bunch of data points, which then you can use later as leverage to get into retail. But I don't think that businesses that have the ability to go retail but choose completely not to. I don't think that's something that's going to happen with businesses that really try to scale. I think if you're pros, it's a different story. But if you're not thinking about omni channel and that doesn't even have to mean going straight into retail, that can mean things like e-retail. That could mean other distribution outlets, whether that's through like Instagram shopping. You know, there's a ton of different outlets there. I think the best way to think about DTC is like the same way you think about mobile and desktop design, right? Like desktop is the OG that might be your retail mobile is like that new stuff. It mind boggles me like why people still think mobile is so far secondary but mobile is like that channel that everybody has and everybody needs to optimize for. And almost think of like mobile first you want to think DTC first, how do you bring that experience and how do you bring that high touch experience to a customer? My best analogy is like if you're running a DTC brand. Think of yourself as an assistant while Kim Kardashian is walking the red carpet that you want to be on top of your game and make sure that you don't mess anything up for that one little stretch of experience. And yeah, I mean, that's probably how I think about it. 

Harvey [00:12:46] Nice. Okay, cool. I think that makes a ton of sense, like you said. I think the analogy with mobile and desktop is great. I haven't heard that before. I guess that's completely yours. And then you mentioned briefly about brands that are shifting now and thinking like through Covid. Thinking shit, what do we do? Our distribution has been cut. We have no audience because the retailers own these audiences. And I guess the same things like the Pantry Shop from Pepsi and elements of that. And do you think there's been just a lot of kind of shift towards eCom out of necessity vs.. Oh, it was part of your core strategy and now you're shifting to it because you have to. And it's not just it's not really being executed on very well. 

Nik [00:13:32] Yeah, I mean, if you're if you're a brand that's like 70 plus percent retail and you didn't have an e-commerce presence. This is only accelerated that process. And not only just build an e-commerce presence, but things like building out acquisition offers or creative landing pages, post purchase, email flows, retention, marketing, launching and scaling on new channels, tapping into new channels, even discovering and talking about new channels. You know, there's so much that goes into it that was probably never thought of really before, because to a brand that's doing a hundred and fifty million and six of that comes from e-commerce. To them, they're they're like, why would we even focus on e-commerce when we have this giant puddle of one hundred and twenty million coming from retail? And so, you know, for those types of brands, it's really been, I think, eye opening. And as I talked to those founders, it's more so that it's accelerated their desire to really take e-commerce to the next level, not necessarily that it wasn't on their roadmap before. It's almost just like they had a very basic setup. But this has almost been a wakeup call, as it should be, to really everybody that you want to figure out A how to be like pandemic or recession proof or whatever you want to call it, but also B ensure that you do have that relationship with your customers and you have those touch points handy. 

Harvey [00:14:52] I agree completely, so we wrote about it in a couple weeks back in the way that I think this new light that Covid as shown on eCom has kind of shown the less eyes like this additional channel and more like a legitimate revenue generating channel that you need to have. So you're not overexposed to kind of external elements like the retail apocalypse that's happening in front of us. So taking it on with around just general strategy in eCom, I know that you've spoken extensively about kind of the three media types within DTC earned media, owned media and paid media. I know there's some great examples through some of the Sharma Brands. And yeah, I kind of wanted to touch on that and earned media at the start. So things like influencers press, UGC. How has that become so pivotal to, I guess, brands you've seen on brands you work with? 

Nik [00:15:47] I mean, more than anything, it's all about like it generates more awareness for the product. It helps with brand alignment. If somebody is wary of a new brand that's come to market. Those press outlets help you. A, tell the story B, become an outlet of distribution to maybe introduce you to a new set of customers and C just overall, tell people who you are and what you do and gives that validation that logo is behind you, claiming that, you know, you sell a good products. 

Harvey [00:16:18] Right ok. So there's there's a key validation point. If you're a kind of new entrant, social proof from the press element. And then does that blur into paid media? I guess with that and I guess you've seen the dependancy paid acquisition and paid media with some co's highly publicized etc. Do you think having that the focus split across the different various different types of media is far more powerful when you kind of add a paid channel with earned media, etc, with a press article with influencers, etc. 

Nik [00:16:52] Yeah. I mean, turning on paid. After you have earned and owned channels that are doing well, is that's like your Hail Mary home run situation. Most brands fall into the spot where they may have owned, but they're only doing it at about 20 percent, meaning that they're probably slacking on it because it's not easy to do good organic social media or organic content, et cetera. Most brands, I would say, do that 20 percent, right. Earned media is usually for the majority of brands if we look at like all the brands that launch at a given time. I would say maybe like one to two percent have really smart earned media strategies. We're not talking about just the Twices or the Judy's of the world. We're also talking about like the fifty five likes kombucha startups that you haven't heard of. In general, earned is probably a much harder channel and then paid as kind of the one where if you have the privilege to spend some money on ads, then you can turn on paid and the combination I've seen brands that don't have a really strong earned background. What they've done is they will leverage any kind of like listicle or articles about their product and almost boost it with paid to really just pump the distribution behind it in hopes of then driving sales and at the same time generating awareness. 

Harvey [00:18:20] Yeah ok, makes complete sense. Kind of an even focus across all the three different types of media. I think one brand I know there's multiple like we've just touched on, Judy, but I mean with someone like Haus, you say it constantly. They have an incredible strategy around owned media, particularly. Some of that content is great. How has that evolved? Was that always part of that core? Was that always a key pillar when they launched? And that's just essentially been validated and double down on. 

Nik [00:18:49] Yeah, I mean, with Haus, you know, Helena is just a branding and marketing like Godess. I don't think there's anybody better than her. But what she did was she decided that she wanted to double down on brand and word of mouth. And so they made a really big investment up front into making sure that those two channels, if you would consider them channels, have enough or sufficient backing behind them to work. For example, she made sure that the bottles feel extremely crisp. So the second you hold it, you want to tell somebody about it or the unboxing experience when you open your box. You want to take a photo posted on Twitter, Instagram, we see them all over and so that was the investment she really wanted to make. When they realized that that was working, then they definitely doubled down on it. And they didn't turn on pay like a traditional DTC brand, which is paid is our channel of acquisition. They use paid very minimally. I think last time we chatted, she mentioned it was something like 20 percent of revenue comes from paid, which is absolutely incredible that 80 percent comes from organic, it comes from word of mouth, it comes from referrals. And then also, you know, before anything else in the marketing world, your product has to be a great product and they've done a great job building product that really entices people to keep coming back again and again. 

Harvey [00:20:25] Yeah and it's vertically integrated as they own the manufacturing. 

Nik [00:20:29] They own everything from start to finish. 

Harvey [00:20:32] Wow. Okay. That makes sense. And with others so someone like Judy which have a very clear value problem where they have a very clear kind of brutalist story in many ways. I know there's quite a audience behind the founder etc. And with that, one of the key distribution points and one of the key stories, having elements and media was around SMS. I know there's quite a bit of content and story that's told out through that. I know. I saw a lot through Covid, it's very apt, I guess. How did that kind of play out? Was that a strategy that you've kind of championed from the start? 

Nik [00:21:10] Yeah. Well, actually, Simon, who's the CEO, you know, he spent the last two years developing, Judy, just after seeing so many friends go through different experiences, whether it was a wildfire or whether it was like a disaster or whether it was something that was more like a robbery. And so he has really seen kind of from start to finish what are all the possibilities of disasters or emergencies that can pop up. And his goal was to build a brand that really champions preparedness rather than this product is gonna save your life. It's more like, actually, let's teach you how to be prepared and we'll currate and get you all the best products to make sure that you are prepared. And so. For him, you know the first line of products that we came out with that, Judy. But the SMS is almost like that layer on top that helps with the teaching aspect, the preparedness. I mean, when you get your Judy, there's a whole, you know, kind of flow you go through with Judy to learn about your products, to learn about what's inside, how to use each product, how to prepare when you get your Judy. What do you put back into your Judy that it didn't come with whether they're emergency documents or passport or whatever it may be. It's really a brand around building awareness and intent for preparing for really any kind of emergency. And that was what Simon wanted to do. But, you know, SMS had been an idea from the start of how do we communicate with customers in a way that, A, we're getting in front of them with the right information. And another big thing was, B, if let's say the power is down or your phone lines are down and you're not getting any service, like usually just basic SMS or basic phone works, whereas data might not work. And SMS was a channel that could still travel through that and get to the other end of that phone, whether it's if the power goes out or there's a hurricane and we want to send localized emergency alerts, we have the ability to do that. Whereas if we solely use a channel like e-mail or whatever it may be other than estimates than we would have almost like a block there. 

Harvey [00:23:24] Yeah, well, that's super cool, I guess, woven into the story of the brand. I didn't think about that at all. And so there's like clearly, like you said, a real key storytelling element there, SMS is a medium for that in a one to on capacity. And we're seeing it all over the place but SMS is kind of this notion of one to one communication. How do you see that proliferating out? Do you think that's evolving into more of an acquisition plan? Is it more retention and storytelling education? A bit more like Judy. How do you think that's evolving? 

Nik [00:23:58] Well, I think there's a few ways estimates can be used, you know, in the case of Judy. We make it a point to send really kind of be like a preparedness guide, via SMS. So we send updates, alerts, you know, we take your zip code upon entry of phone numbers so we know where you are. If there's anything that's critical or important, we let you know. Whereas with something like a DIrty Lemon, they only use SMS for the purpose of transacting. Right. So not even sending notifications or updates or promotions. But it's only for the purpose of. You don't have to take your credit card out. You approved the transaction with a text or whatever. There's other brands that use it for the purpose of like cart abandonment or cart recovery. So you might have it where you're looking. You'd get to their site. They ask you if you want a 20 percent off coupon, you put your phone number in. But then now really what they're doing is seeing if you're leaving the site without purchasing and then they'll follow up and see if you want to purchase with, you know, maybe a bigger discount. So there is a ton of ways in which SMS. is being used. The last example, which I hate the most is when a brand just constantly blasts you with promotions to buy or try their product. Those are the kind of people that really bring the channel down overall for everybody else. But I think, like with any good channel or any really any channel. Right. Like if your content is good, regardless of the medium, then your consumers or your followers or subscribers will stay. But if you simply exploit the channel for your own good or for whatever suits you and doesn't necessarily serve the rest of the medium, then you're not going to be remembered for it. And it's really going to aggravate people at the end of the day. 

Harvey [00:25:40] Yeah, 100%. And I guess that could be one issue where like e-mail became this spammy medium. But then you see incredible examples of great quality storytelling that it should have always been. Obviously, we'll see how that plays out within SMS, depending on various restrictions, etc. And you mentioned about other mediums. Do you think that notion of one-to-one communication, real relationship building, regardless of SMS. If you look across kind of WhatsApp or Facebook Messenger, even Instagram DM's at scale, do you think that is where those communications are heading? And relationships are heading within eCom? 

Nik [00:26:22] I think to some extent, like I think it fits a product, like maybe it's Caraway or Judy. There is an aspect of you want your car or your order personalized to you. And I guess you could to some level involve personalization into that journey. The other side of the argument is, well, how much do you want to add steps, which is essentially adding friction. Right. So if you don't need to do it, if you're selling underwear, you probably don't need to add those points of color or size because those are kind of obvious things. Whereas if it's a newer product, whether it's a Judy kit or a cooking set by Caraway, you might want to get more data points or information on. OK, well, does this customer just need the stroller? Do they need the full car seat? Add on. Did they need X, Y and Z. With Judy it would be like, well, what's your zip code? Does what we're selling. Does it match what your geo is? So I think where it's possible and where it's necessary, it enhances the experience, but where it's not necessary. It almost causes more friction and potentially more confusion, because, you know, if somebody is trying to buy body soap, they might wonder why somebody wants to know X, Y or Z about them, because it's not an intuitive experience. It's not something that people are used to be doing. 

Harvey [00:27:48] Yeah, totally man. I think it's a powerful weapon used in the right way and not pushed on to everything. I think you see quite a bit of that where there's this new thing, this new medium and this new strategy, and it's just plowed into every forfeit. And oftentimes that doesn't kind of yield the results that run things. And then kind of going way back. You touched on elements of media and different channels of distribution. And now you see you eCom and DTC evolving. If you were building a separate brand yourself right now, how would that look? How would your experiences over the last five, six years be reflected in that? 

Nik [00:28:36] Good question. I would say a lot of it was probably well, they would all be probably planned backwards from distribution. So if I was selling a pillow, then I would go find. Well, who are people that are like influencers to people who look for advice and sleep? Who are brands that people look at when they think of sleep. What are other complementary products? Maybe it's a CBD gummy. Maybe it's a weighted blanket. What are other brands out there that I can tap into their audiences by maybe partnering up, coming out with a product with them, etc, etc. That's kind of how I think of that distribution first approach. And then it would all probably depend like if this was something that's just a little pet project of my own. Maybe it's something where I start small with really like an MVP prove the model out. And then when I realized that there is real PMF, then I start to scale up. Whereas if it's something that I'm building with a team and there's proper funding behind it, then we're gonna come out the gates, guns blazing, same type of thing where we look at distribution first. But maybe there's a much more elevated experience out the gate versus starting with like an MVP version of the site. I don't think either are the right or the wrong way, and they're both right ways to do it. If you think of MVMT or Native, like all those OG kind of brands, they are launched with horrible sites and horrible Facebook ads and horrible branding, and they still turned out to be very successful. But yeah, I mean, I think at the end of the day, distribution backwards or distribution first thinking is the way I would approach it. You know, from every aspect, whether it's social media, I would think about, okay, well, what are the things that are going to trigger people to share this? Not necessarily get the most likes, email same way building audiences. How do we create content that drives somebody who's interested in what a good pillow could look like? How do we collect a pool of people who might be interested in a pillow product? Maybe we write about what it takes to get the perfect night's sleep and pixel all those users and build that audience to retarget a week later and really anything and everything but distribution first. 

Harvey [00:30:44] Distribution first and kind of learn by doing. Okay, cool. And I guess that's been a narrative that has filtered through everything you've been doing really. I know we mentioned earlier with Hint and you mentioned that how from day one it was really like, let's do it, let's test it, let's learn and let's do that whole thing really quickly. So I guess looking back over those last kind of five, six years and all the different experiences and brands and strategies, like, what would you say is the key? I know there's can be a time on it is an impossible question, but what would be one of the key points that you would take from that being one of the most important things that they've learned? 

Nik [00:31:28] The most important thing is probably. Honestly, I always come back to that red carpet example. Like, whether it's your creative, whether it's your landing pages, whether it's your branding and the messaging, whether it's your organic social media, like everything should have that red carpet layer kind of added to it. If you're posting a photo on Instagram, that product should be tagged. And when you click that tag, you should learn everything about the product without having to leave Instagram. When you post a tweet for your brand, like don't use Bitly. Don't use a long URL. Go buy a branded URL and create beautiful short URL's. When you run Facebook ads and still get angry at Facebook for having a high CPM, fix your landing page and fix your conversion rate, because you know that doubling your conversion rate is a lot easier than trying to half your CPA on Facebook. So I think that red carpet approaches like what I always look at in every situation is, OK, how do we make this better? You know, even if it's not doubling performance, how do we make it one percent better? How do you make your copy better? How do you like. There's just so many ways to constantly be improving. 

Harvey [00:32:37] Right. And so that red carpet, that attention to detail and everything. The subtle nuances is what you see with the brands you mentioned. They execute on the small things that are actually huge in the grand scheme of things. And then like you said, I think a great example with Facebook ads is like take ownership don't place that blame on others, like it's there for you to disrupt. So last two questions before we go. If you were here with us, like, who would you want to hear from in an episode? Who would you want to get on on our podcast that would share that strategy? Share their experiences. That could help a younger eCom audience. 

Nik [00:33:20] Probably Moiz, the founder of Native. 

Harvey [00:33:23] So you gave me a super hard one. OK. That's an amazing story. 

Nik [00:33:29] He's the goat. I call him like the O.G. DTC operator. 

Harvey [00:33:36] Yes, he is.

Nik [00:33:38] Yeah. Multiple times successfully with scrappy budget approach and really just focusing on consumer optimization, whether it's within the distribution, whether it's within making a really good product, whether it's within packaging, whether it's within new mediums of content or web experience like Moiz is the goat. 

Harvey [00:34:03]  I think you said it there that filtering through everything and that attention to detail, that iteration. 

Nik [00:34:10] I mean, if you talk to Moiz, he gets mad about how Shopify cart. When you put the phone number in, doesn't switch to a numerical keypad. It stays on a normal letter keyboard. He pays a lot of attention to detail. 

Harvey [00:34:24] Well, yeah, I'm I'm a big fan of his. I've read many, many of the stories from back in the days, like you say, the O.G. of eCom. And then lastly, where can our listeners find you Nick where is it best to catch up with what you're doing and ever get in contact. 

Nik [00:34:40] Well, if you're international, meaning outside the U.S., the best is probably Twitter at @mistersharma. If you live within the US, you can just text me my phone number is 9179052340.

Harvey [00:34:54] Nice one. Thank you very much for sharing your experiences and insights. It's hugely appreciated. And I'll catch up with you soon. 

Nik [00:35:06] Sounds good. Brother. 

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